Breaking the Cycle of Codependency with Terri Cole

This is the transcript of an interview hosted on Ruth’s Feel Better. Live Free. podcast.

Ruth Soukup: Do you ever find yourself trying to fix other people’s problems? Or maybe anticipating potentially sticky situations before they even happen, just to keep everyone else happy? Do you worry about things that are outside of your control? If the answer to any of those questions was yes, there’s a good chance that you’re a high functioning codependent without even realizing it.

And it’s impacting your life and your health in a big way. Believe me, after chatting with today’s podcast guest, Terri Cole, I was shocked to realize just how much my codependent behavior is actually affecting my own life. And if you’re anything like me, this might be the episode you didn’t realize you needed to hear.

Today we’re going to be chatting with my friend, Terri Cole about breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency and about what it means to set better boundaries in your life, as well as what it can do for your health.

Terri is a licensed psychotherapist and a global relationship expert, as well as the host of the Terri Cole Show podcast and the author of a brand new book, Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High Functioning Codependency.

It’s an interview that I think every single woman needs to hear. So without further ado, I am so excited to be able to introduce you to today’s interview guest, Terri Cole. /image

Terri, I am so excited to talk to you today. So excited to talk about your new book and it’s so good to see you. Like it’s been a little while.

Terri Cole: It has, Ruth. I’m so happy to be here.

Ruth: Yes. Well, thank you. So, um, let’s just start with a little background. Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do and how you got to be doing what you are now.

Terri: Okay. I am a licensed psychotherapist and I’ve been doing this for 27 years. I am, um, a female empowerment expert.

I’m a boundaries and communication and codependency expert. So those are really my areas of expertise, what I write about, what I speak about, what my books are about and how did I get here? Well, I actually was a talent agent. In New York and LA for almost a decade before I became a psychotherapist.

So I was sort of on this, you know, my own personal parent, like journey of help mental health while I was in entertainment. I was very ambitious. I was like running a bi-coastal talent agency, the New York office in my early thirties. And I really kept thinking like, I just got to get to this next thing.

And then I’m going to feel. The way I want to feel. And I just kept getting to the next thing, but not feeling the way I wanted to feel. And I was like, Oh, wow, I think I’m doing this backwards. Like, this isn’t it. And. I got to a level of my own mental health where I was like, I literally cannot stay in this toxic business anymore.

Like, I don’t want to be a part of that because the last couple of years of my career, I was negotiating contracts for celebrities and supermodels for like, you know, Pantene, like different brand deals, basically. And I just thought there really has to be something better. I could be doing with my one and only life than making supermodels richer.

And I got nothing against supermodels and I got nothing against people being rich. I just figured that can’t be my only Dharma. There’s got to be some other purpose. And I was so, um, enthralled with the therapeutic process myself of my own, how much my life changed. I stopped drinking when I was 21, got into therapy when I was 19.

Like I couldn’t even believe how much I could change my life simply by having a desire to change my life and not realizing when I was younger, I sort of thought, you know, you’re dealt a hand in life. We’re all dealt certain cards. And I was like, all right. So I used to think you just play those cards to the best of your ability.

And what therapy did for me was it made me realize I could get new cards, I could get a new deck, I could just create a new game, which is what I did.

Ruth: Wow. I love that. So your new book is about, let’s see, it’s called Too Much. And it’s about breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency. So I want to dive into all of that, but first let’s just start with the basics, right?

What is codependency and what does it look like? How do you define it?

Terri: Okay. So codependency, according to me is us being overly invested in the feeling states The outcomes, the situations, the circumstances, the decisions of the people in our lives to the detriment of our own internal peace, or to the detriment of our financial well being or our emotional well being.

So it’s feeling overly responsible for others. So, Obviously you teach what you most need to learn is what they say. And I was the biggest codependent on planet earth, but didn’t identify that way because the reason I coined the phrase high functioning codependency is because I attracted women like myself.

Um, and I think it’s really important to understand that there are a lot of people who are not super highly capable, successful doing their thing, who also did not identify with the old school melody baby codependent no more. It got to be involved enabling an addict to be codependent definition of codependency.

So what is the problem with that? Well, I would be talking to my clients and saying, Oh, Hey, what you’re describing, this is a codependent pattern. And they’d be like, what I’m not dependent on squat lady. Everyone’s dependent on me. I’m making all the money. I’m making all the decisions. I’m managing the crap out of all the schedules and all the people and doing all the things for all the things.

So I, I’m not that. And I was like, well, my clients don’t know what codependency is because you are that. You just do it differently. So with high functioning codependency, the irony. With this affliction is that the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency, but it’s still codependency.

And we’re still suffering. You know, we’re still suffering with what happens when you’re in codependent relationships. You feel underappreciated, you’re frigging exhausted, you get burnt out, you’re over functioning, over giving, overdoing, but then feeling like. People kind of owe us or, or, or we’re not being appropriately appreciated.

Make sense?

Ruth: Yes. Yes. I can highly relate to that.

I like truly. And so it’s different than, because I would be, I would say the same thing, right? Like I’m not, I’m not codependent, like strong, independent woman, but you’re right, like, as you’re saying that, like. But who, who’s responsible for all the scheduling and the meal planning and that also running my business and doing all the things.

So, yeah, it’s highly, highly relatable. Okay. So what are like, I mean, so what you’re saying is codependency is different than enablement because, and, or it just looks different. It’s still enablement is that, or it’s something totally different.

Terri: Well, here’s the thing. It is enabling. Or it’s infantilizing, right?

That’s another way of looking at it. Think about it when we’re doing things for other people that they can and should be doing for themselves. We’re really not doing anyone any favors, right? It’s, I feel like with my clients. And with my own flavor of codependency, because again, why, why is this, why am I interested enough in this to write an entire frigging book about it?

Because it was the thing in my life that I didn’t realize I was so resentful when in my twenties, I was really resentful in my relationships. I really felt like people were entitled and took advantage and had all these expectations of me. And when I really got into it in therapy, I had these really painful realizations that And I’m going to talk about the common denominator in my life.

And in my relationships was me and my behavior and me offering and me almost feeling like, um, I had to be useful. I needed to be of service. It’s like, let’s talk a little bit about what it looks like in practice. When we’re talking about high functioning, codependency. There are different behavioral patterns that I’ve seen in 27 years over and over and over again.

So auto advice giving is one of them. And what do you find that? Well, when somebody, you know, is talking to you about something, even if they’re not asking your opinion, you’re like, Oh my God. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Can’t stop. Just. Yep. Exactly. And okay. I’m getting, I’m getting like schooled right now. I love it.

It, I can’t even tell you Ruth, how many. Super highly capable, incredibly successful. Women are interviewing me for this book. When I start the interview, they’re all like, Oh yeah, this will be great for my listeners and other people. And then within like five minutes, they’re like, Oh my God, it’s me. It’s only, it’s me.

It’s me. Yes, it is. Um, so we have auto advice giving. Okay. Yeah. And let’s talk about what. Let’s talk about what that does though, because here’s the thing. And I walk you through all of this in the book, but it’s because people will say online to me, well, I just care about what happens. Like, I’m just being nice.

What’s wrong with being nice? I’m like, dude, if you can’t not do it, it is not you being nice. It is a compulsion. And here’s the key that I think that most people don’t talk about when we’re talking about codependency is that it’s an overt or a covert bid to control other people’s outcomes. Ouch. But right.

Ruth: Yeah. Yeah. Don’t want our kids. Like I can think of that with my teenagers and I’m always like giving them all the advice and telling them all the things that they should do. And let me tell you about life and how to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Understandable. Because what, what do we lose when we do that?

Terri: Right. We lose. deeper intimacy. We lose really knowing the people in our lives. And even with teenagers, I totally listened. No judgment, please. Hi. I raised teenagers and did the same thing. So I get it, but what did we lose by, by not? What we’re as parents, right? Our job is to prepare them to go out into the world, right?

As, as the, um, what’s his name? Um, there’s a, there’s a poem by Cabrillo. I can’t think of his last name, but it’s literally written in 1928. And it’s all about children, how parents, we are the bows and the children are the arrows. Right. And what is our job? Our job is to be solid, but like we don’t own our kids, right?

Like, like it’s a gift that we get to ferret them through and that we have X amount of time to teach them things and to show things, but we want to teach them how to deductive reasoning, problem solving in an effective way. But if you’re a parent and you’re so afraid that your kid’s going to make a mistake, if they don’t get into the right school, or if they’re dating the wrong girl or boy or whatever, whoever it is, that our fear a lot of times has us.

Codependent way with kids. But you can sort of easily flip that if you have a tendency. To want to be like, Hey, this is what you should do. Always start with. All right, well, let’s start with. What do you think you should do?

Ruth: I like that. Cause I do not ask that. I will. I will say. Honestly, like, I’m always like, I got it. Here’s what you should do. Oh, I’ve been thinking about this. Here’s what you should do. I’ve got it all figured out for you. But we want, we want them to, but we want them to be able to do that. And what happens when we stop centering ourselves and as the solution, we allow them to start to flex these figuring it out.

Terri: So we ask expansive questions. What do you think you should do? What does your gut instinct say? So then what do you think would happen after that? Like, there’s a way to encourage this type of, um, thinking this critical thinking that is so important in life and be with them still in the foxhole.

So it isn’t like, When people say, what’s wrong? I just want to be nice. I love them. We, of course we love our kids. And of course we love the people who were controlling, right? It’s not about that though. It’s about, is there a better way to show our love so that the relationship deepens? And that we respect even teenagers.

They have a right to be sovereign in certain ways, right? Even, even if they’re still 16 or 17 or there’s still minors and still living in our homes, there is, they have a right to psychological privacy or they have a right to what they think. And even to encourage them to build a case, right? Okay. Oh, you want to go to that concert?

That’s two days, a two day thing where you’re going to be away with your friends. So present that case to me. Why should that be a yes? Please, I’ll give you exactly 45 minutes to present your case, right? Like, there’s ways that we can encourage the thinking, but when we go to the auto advice, that is a fear based thing.

Reaction. And another thing is it feels good to know the answers, right? A lot of times we’re auto advice giving because we are smart and capable and we do have a great idea and we, we have been through it before and it doesn’t mean you can’t ever share that. But I always say, first step is say, all right, Before we go anywhere.

What do you think you should do? What does your gut say? Why do you think that? Tell me more and see if you can’t have an expansive, more clarifying relationship. And that’s with everyone. That’s not just cats.

Ruth: Yeah. Right. So what, how does that change things? Like, cause I can totally hear in everything that you’re saying, I can recognize those patterns in myself, but what does that, how does that change the, like, cause obviously the premise of your book is that codependency is not a healthy way of living.

So how does that change the, the codependency and, and how does that like affect your psyche in a positive way?

Terri: Okay. If you’re no longer telling people what to do. Yes, exactly. You’re like, wait, if I quit telling people what to do. Well, part of it is realizing I will be happier. Is that, is that the secret that I’ve been missing?

Yes, you will be, you’ll be less constricted. You’ll be less hypervigilant. You’ll be less stressed out. But here’s the thing, Ruth, that, that we really have to get. I’m going to tell a quick story of how I even came to this in my young life, because it’s one of the central stories in the book and it’s the truth.

One of my sisters, I have three older sisters, and one of them always was the kind of in like bad relationships and just trouble, you know, addiction, alcoholism. And so she was living with No exaggeration. A guy doing crack. He was, um, this was in the woods in upstate New York in, uh, with no running water and no electricity in this house.

Um, she was drinking, she wasn’t doing crack, but still, right? And he was abusive. So I’m now, this is like a five alarm fire for me. I’ve never been in an abusive relationship in my life. We did not have abuse at home. So I’m really freaking out talking to my, my therapist about it. And finally I was like, what am I going to do, Bev?

What am I going to do? I remember just bawling my eyes out. And she was like, Terri, what makes you think You know, what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime. Wow.

I was like, Oh, well, I think we can both agree that she doesn’t need to learn it with a frigging crackhead in the woods without running water. Can we at least agree on that? I mean, you make a fair point. But she, she, she, my Bev disagreed. And she said, you know, Tara, I can’t agree with that because I’m not God.

And I don’t know what must happen for her for there to be a shift, but I do know, she said, do you understand what’s happening for you? And I said, obviously not. So please clue me in. And she said, listen, you’ve spent years creating a pretty harmonious life. You’re happily married. You’re raising these three kids.

It’s like you’ve worked hard in therapy, quit drinking all the things. Your sister’s dumpster fire of a life is super messing with your peace. You just want it to be fixed so you could go back to like your abula kind of and that was very humbling Because the realization is I was so driven partly obviously, she’s my sister.

I love her I don’t want her to be with a crackhead who’s abusive clearly But her point was, it wasn’t my situation and that it was my sister’s side of the street and that what I could do, though, because she said, Terri, you can draw boundaries talking to your sister when your sister’s telling you about what this guy’s doing and how he’s being is completely completely.

Completely. like just literally my whole day would be ruined. I would just be crying. It was so disruptive and stressful. You know? And she was said, you know, you can draw boundaries. So anyway, I said to my sister, listen, this is too stressful for me. I love you. And if, and when you’re ready to get out of there, I will always be your person.

Like I’m here. And she was like, I, she really understood. She was like, I, I get it. And I love you too. And thank you. Whatever. So we probably in the nine months after that probably spoke only like twice when we’ve been speaking weekly up to that point, and then she called and she had gotten out.

Well, she just said, are you still my person? I was like, I’m getting in my car. Went back to school, she got sober, got into a 12 step program. And the thing is, Ruth, instead of me being the hero of Jenna’s story, Jenna got to be the hero of her story. And if I had ripped her out or brought the police or did something drastic, it’s not her reaching her bottom, which is what needed to happen, right?

Ruth: Yeah. So yeah. So the story gives me chills because it’s so true. And I can think about that. Like, I mean, even just this weekend conversation that I had with a friend who was over and she was talking about. Her family and the drama and their, her mom is, you know, problematic and narcissistic. And so the whole family is, is constantly being sucked into this drama.

And she’s, I’m like, you know, you live here. Your mom is in a different state. You don’t have to answer the phone when she calls, like you can set, you have to set boundaries. And, but then listen to me, like giving me advice, trying to fix it for her. And. At the same time. Like, so you see that you see it happening for other people.

And then I see my own codependency right in there. Oh my gosh, you’re, you’re giving me all the, all the insight right now, but it is true. I think we do that all the time. We want, because she’s wanting to fix everything for her siblings and I’m wanting to fix everything for her. So what we can do instead, let’s talk about that. Because I guarantee you there are people listening and watching who go, that’s me.

Terri: What we can do instead is always, you can ask someone, someone who’s upset. You can say, how can I best support you right now?

What would be helpful? So because here’s the thing, we don’t want to abandon the people we love, right? We don’t want to abandon our friends. We don’t want to, but by assuming. That we do know what they should do. Cause the truth is we don’t, I thought my sister needed to immediately leave that situation.

Apparently she needed to stay another nine months in order to reach the bottom. She needed to reach, to be motivated, to get into recovery and change her frigging life, go back to school, all the things. So it wasn’t about what I thought she needed, even though it could be obvious, quote unquote, where it seems obvious where you’re like, what, why would that she need to stay longer?

That’s what I thought. It doesn’t matter, right? Your life is your life. You, you have your own trajectory of your health, how, where you were, where you are now, how you’re inspiring other people. Anyone along the way could judge and be like, well, I don’t get, why did it have to get to that too? We’re all on, as Bev said, my therapist, I’m not God and neither is anyone else.

So when we love people, we have to respect them. Their journeys, and there are ways to have these conversations. Like in the beginning, it’s really hard when we are such auto advice givers or auto accommodators as well, right? This is another thing for high functioning codependency where it’s, how it’s different than just regular, the codependent no more is that what I see is that we have a tendency to be a little bit codependent with the world.

If we see a situation, we’re on a plane and people want to sit together, but we could move. We’re like, Oh, I could move where we’re volunteering. You know what I mean? If I’m in line and someone has one thing and I have 15, I’m like, Oh, you could go ahead of me.

Like, again, there’s so much control and it’s realizing that that’s not ours. To control. I was in the city getting my hair done years ago and it was super busy Saturday and I was having a hair mask on. So I was like laying in the sink for like 10 minutes, but the sink line is backing up and like, I’m literally, I’m not meditating.

I’m not listening to a podcast. I’m sitting here being like, Oh, I should tell the assistant that I don’t need to wait in the sink. Like I could wait somewhere else and they could use the sink. So I raised, I get the girl over. Hey, You know, I could move. She’s like, yeah, weirdo. We got it. Thanks. We’re good.

You don’t need to move. I mean, she was a little bit like, hi, we do this every day to decide. Yeah. Uh huh. And I had this whole epiphany around how. Codependently dialed into my surrounding. I am the hypervigilance, the antennas that go up to Mars, where I’m so aware of everything and how not good that is for my central nervous system.

And I did a quick YouTube video on it and it went viral. And it was, I think it was watched 130, 000 times in 28 days. Like so many people being like, Holy crap, I’m an auto accommodator. I got stopped doing it. And the thing is, We can stop doing it though. And again, people will push back and be like, but isn’t it nice?

You were just being thoughtful. Here’s the thing. If it’s, if it’s compulsive though, it’s not nice. It’s control. And those things are different. I was trying to, one thing with high functioning codependence, a lot of times is that We are always looking to make sure there’s not a problem. And if there is, we’re, we’re like seven steps ahead of how we’re going to usurp that problem before it actually becomes a problem.

So too much planning ahead. Like, let’s say you have a difficult family member, you, you know, this is anticipatory planning, right? Where you have this. It’s all of this thought of who should Uncle Bob sit near with his political views. I don’t want him sitting next to that one or this one or that one. I know that he likes to drink this kind of brandy, I’m gonna make sure we have that.

I’m gonna, like, all of the ways, rather than just being honest. Maybe you don’t want Uncle Bob at all your gatherings, right? And if he comes, maybe you can just let the chips fall where they may be sits next to someone who thinks something different. Like all of this is skin off our back, right? People say it’s no skin off my back, but reality is it actually is with all of this over, um, concentration on other people, it actually Is doing something to us.

Ruth: Yeah. So let’s talk about that. What is like, what is this doing to like, to your psyche when you’re constantly, cause I can recognize that too. I lay in wait and what you’re saying about the over accommodation. I don’t think I have that as much. Like I always say there’s two kinds of people. I don’t know if you’ll agree with this.

There are the people that choose The window seat so that they can be the ones to have to ask other people to move to go to the bathroom or the people who always choose the aisle so that they can be the ones to get up. And I am a window seat. Like I don’t care if I have to tell other people to move, but I get so annoyed when other people ask me to move.

If I’m in an airplane, I need to go to the bathroom. If I’m asleep, like, like, right. So that would be not over accommodating. Cause I’m like, no, I don’t want to accommodate you. You can accommodate me.

Terri: Yes. I think that that’s probably accurate. And I think that you can be a high functioning codependent in some areas and not in other.

And for sure in the auto advice, for sure, for sure. So interesting. So, so what is this all like, what is this all doing to us? Well, we’re really, really tired. So that’s one thing. And another thing that’s adding to this mental load of high functioning codependency and the cost of it is the emotional labor that we’re doing, which is basically the invisible.

A lot of it is invisible, but it’s the unpaid work that we do to keep life running, to keep our families running, to keep, you know, the toilet paper does not replace itself. The food, the teachers, the end of the year, the, where the kid’s going, the summer things, the figuring out the clothes, the figuring out the camps, the.

Whatever it is that you’re figuring out. I mean, traditionally women have done it a hundred percent more than men or 99 percent more than we asked to say. And that also creates, um, exhaustion. And this is a cumulative experience of resentment as well. So what is it doing to us? The rates of burnout that I see in women in their late forties, fifties, sixties, seventies is unbelievable.

That is an epidemic unto itself. And then you have autoimmune disorders and then you have other physical health challenges and problems that for sure are related to To how we’re feeling. And do you think that it is a manifestation of the resentment or is it more of a, you’re so busy taking care of everybody else that you like, just don’t feel like you can physically take care of yourself or make your physical health a priority.

I think it’s a combination. I think that you’re resentful. Because we think of everyone else and we really just in some ways we do what’s called positive projection, or we expect other other people to be like us. They’re not because A lot of times when you’re an over functioner, you will attract under functioners and you will also, you can also create under functioning when you have these really high standards and you want everything done a particular way.

People just give up. They’re like, I don’t even freaking care. Just let her do it because I can’t do it. Right. So whatever, like slowly raises hand. But what happens to us and what happens to the other person When we’re doing this kids as well, is that even though we might want it to be a certain way, what happens when you’re doing it over time, my mother had said something to me, and I actually wrote about this and boundary boss, my first book, where I was saying something about.

And I was like, you know, he, he wants to like come drive into the city to pick me up. Even though I could take a train. It would only take 20 minutes. It’s not efficient. Doesn’t even make sense. Like, you know, I’m literally judging all the nice things he wants to do. And my mother said, Terri, first of all, why, why are you stopping him?

Why are you blocking his joy? Are you the only one who gets to do nice things for other people, right? He wants to do it. And she’s like, you know, If you do that long enough, he’ll stop offering. Like if you reject. The kindness and the gifts and the help, because another thing with high functioning codependence is that we’re hyper independent many times.

And we just really want to do it ourselves. We don’t, I mean, I can’t, when I was in my twenties, even thirties, I couldn’t even let the cab driver lift up my suit case. You know, he’d be getting out. I’m like, I got it. Like, just go back into your car. It’s fine. Like why though, what is that about? And the cost, let’s just go back to your question, which is what is it doing to us?

What is it doing to our relationships? Well, I believe that it gets in the way of us being our most successful selves, if we’re going to talk about business, because bleeding that amount of life force energy bandwidth, bandwidth. On other people and solving other people’s problems, even when they’re not asking us to, and thinking of all the things that’s, you know, your million dollar idea could be in that energy, but you don’t have that energy for your million dollar idea because you’re too busy controlling the crap out of everyone else.

So there’s that, but we have the physical and then we have the relational because the resentment, a lot of times we’re not saying it. But we’re just feeling it and it becomes the thing that distances us from the people that we love and our lives because we feel taken advantage of and I got to a point in my late 20s and early 30s where I really, truly, Ruth, I really thought it was everyone else, like, I’m not kidding.

I was like, if my boss weren’t a jerk, didn’t expect me to work on weekends, then I would like this job. If my boyfriend had a clue and could figure out where we should go to dinner, I wouldn’t be so over this relationship. If my friends knew how to break down the check after we had dinner, like all the things that I was sort of volunteering myself to do.

And I had the realization in therapy that was it them or was it me? And in the end of the end, it was me serving myself up on a silver platter. And it was like, um, you put, you’re putting yourself in a double bind, like painting yourself into a corner of resentment. So how do we do it? Like, what, how do we do it differently? Is really the question.

Ruth: Yeah. Can I give you an example? And then you’d counsel me on this because I have a recent one. Okay. So I. You know, I’m the mom, but I’m also the breadwinner for my family. My husband has been, you know, the stay at home dad since 2013 and does most of the house stuff, right? Like handles most of the house stuff and that’s all good.

But the one like bone of contention we’ve always had is that he does not meal plan nor prep for dinner and is. Like, I mean, for years we fought about it, right? Like, cause every day at five o’clock I’d be like, what’s for dinner. And every day he’d be like, why do you always ask me that? Like, cause we literally eat every day, right?

Like moms just think of that thing, like this, you know, this is part of the job, right? And so finally we got to a point where I was like, you know what? He’s never going to do it. I’m tired of being mad and hungry every day. So I’m going to, I’m going to start meal planning. And so I do try to do, plus I really enjoy cooking and my kids.

Because during all that time, we used to basically eat out for dinner every night. My kids never want to go to restaurants, right? They only want like home cooked meals. And so I started like on the weekends, I’d try to do meal planning and have a plan for dinner. And I can give my husband the list and he can go to the grocery store.

Sometimes I do wherever that’s fine, but that doesn’t always happen. Right. Because I also. run multiple businesses. And so sometimes it’s just not feasible. And my kids are always like, mom, where’s the meal plan? Like, right. If it’s not there, they’re like so upset. Like there’s no plan for dinner. We don’t know what we’re having.

And, and, and yet when I do it, nobody appreciates it. Right. Like it’s like nothing. And then on top of that, I go to the grocery store and my husband. Every time I come home from the grocery store, my husband’s like, why’d you buy that? Right? Like we already have this. Why did you buy, why’d you buy this? Like he criticizes my groceries and not planning enough for buying something that we already had something.

So finally, like a couple of weeks ago, right? Like, and this is just like rolled off me for a long time. I’m just like, whatever. I’m going to let it go. And a couple of weeks ago, I, it was like, I, whatever I hit your resentment bar. And I just was like, I have had it. Like you don’t appreciate any of this. You have no idea what it’s like, how hard it is to do this and plan them in the family.

And nobody appreciates it. You only notice when it’s not done. Right. I’m just mad at everybody. So what, how should I have handled that situation? And because it took me several weeks, like we’re fine. Now we’ve finally moved past it, but I was pissed for like three weeks and I don’t even, I don’t usually stay mad for things.

Um, and so like, what do I, what do I do for the future? And how do I, how should I have handled it?

Terri: Well, first of all, So from the top, this is not about meal planning. So, so the bottom line is there’s something else right. That this is about for, uh, probably for your husband and maybe for you too. I don’t know, but you don’t, I mean, when we get into a, like a pissing contest, so to speak, or we get into, when we get polarized on something, when we all know we’re capable of doing the thing, it’s not the thing, it’s the control.

It’s the, you know, so I feel like having a conversation about what it’s really about could be helpful. But in the meantime, if we’re, we’re going to get to. Strategic stuff. Yeah. Your, your girls are teens, right? Um, yes. My oldest just left for college. So, and then I, so, yeah. So my feeling is, I think that you can also delegate that the girls are old enough that they have to at least add to what they want that week.

Everyone, each person has to put in three dinner ideas. And it can be the same, because as families, we just all eat the same crap. It’s just, you know, we probably rotate through ten different things, or eight different things, let’s say. Um, and I feel like getting some help from them, because it’s age appropriate, Would be great.

They want a home cooked meal. They can add to it because you don’t need to be the only one working Um, I think you put a rule into place with your husband that he either he makes the grocery list Where you go, and if he does not he cannot say shit about anything you bring home, but that’s it Here’s the rule you you can make the grocery list and I promise to get what’s on the list If you don’t make the list you are literally Not to comment if I bought four gallons of milk and we had four in the refrigerator.

You’re not saying a word We’re gonna drink a lot of milk this week. We’re gonna love it Like I think it’s okay to say that because you’re you’re also saying listen, you can’t have it all ways. You can’t not go to the grocery store Yeah. And then have some shit to say about it. You can’t. So I think it’s okay.

Like here, here’s the rule. We’re both going to do it. You know, I heard something on Kate Northrop’s, one of my girlfriends shows once some lady came on about efficiency and she talked about having, keeping the same grocery list. Like actually having the grocery list in your list because it’s always the frigging same.

Like we’re literally pretty much unless one of the girls in their suggestions comes up with something new. And that is a, then they’d have to also attach the recipe if they wanted to do something different, like mostly we’re eating the same stuff. So it’s almost like having it on there and then highlighting the stuff that you need.

So you’re not rewriting the list every single week. Yeah. But. I do think the, probably the most important thing about all of that, Ruth, is that it is about something else. And you, what, what would, um, Gay Hendricks, who I just interviewed for something, he talks about, um, your zone of genius. And the more stuff that we do that is out of our zone of genius, The, the more depleted we are energetically.

So you doing that when you’re as successful as you are, right? And it’s like, you know, we have all this shame around being successful. I feel like it’s too bougie to hire someone to do this. Or what are other people going to think? Or I know we’re privileged and I know you’re privileged and I’m privileged and yes, all that’s.

I’m accurate. And yet there’s still a reality that you’re running all these businesses and you still only have 24 hours in a day. And so I also always think about delegating things out, whether it’s delegating it professionally. Does it make sense that someone else do it? So many of my friends who are in a similar position that you are in that I am have, have hired people that they consider a wife, that they consider a house mom, that they consider someone, a house manager.

So to speak.

Ruth: And I’ve thought about that. I, and I have, and I’ve even tried to hire help with that, that particular thing. Cause I, cause I know you’re right, but there’s also this like little piece of me and maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s the guilt thing of like, knowing that my kids love the home cooked food.

So much that that is like how I show my love, like they might, they want their friends to come over and have like me make meals for them. Like my daughter sprung a dinner for 16 kids the other night. Like, it’s like, by the way, can I have some friends over? How many 16? Um, so it was like half my day, right?

Like I’m cooking for these kids. Cause they were like, Oh mom, they want your chicken and they want this and they want that. And so like, it’s hard for me, right. As a mom to not want to like show my love in that way, but yeah, the time. Right. But part of it is you could, if someone else though, if someone else had it dialed down though, the shopping of it and the putting everything in the house of it all, and perhaps meal prepping some of the stuff.

Yeah. You could still do that. And it would be loving. leisurely and fun. Yes. Imagine you’re doing no shopping. You’re doing none of that crap. Then, then the cooking would be different. Especially if it’s a special. Yeah. Like that would make sense. That’s my two cents. So I need boundaries and I need to hire help.

Yes. And. We’ve come up with. Yes. And you need to talk about it. Right. Yeah. When we get polarized, the truth is it’s not about that. And it’s okay. It’s like, I’ll do it. I do what’s called the state of the union with my husband. So every other week, and I always have my couple when I was counseling couples back in the day, I would always have them do this too, where we normalized.

The art of just talking. So we would do, Vic and I just do it on Sunday mornings, every other Sunday, we would just stay in bed longer than we normally would. And we talk about like, what’s going great. What are we doing great? What do we need to work on? Have we been intimate enough? Has it been good? Have, have we been helpful enough?

Are we mad about the thing that happened? Like when you were mad for those three weeks, it would be like, do you want to talk about what happened with the, the shopping? And then we bring it up and we talk about it. And when, you know, you’re going to do this, even if it’s once or twice a month and we do it as a, we, we literally systematize it almost like we make it a normal thing to do, especially those of us who are raised as kind of good girls and not wanting to like start trouble or stir the pot, it makes it so much easier to just talk about what’s going on.

What are we doing? Great. What do we need to work on? That’s it. Like it takes the emotion out of it. And then, yeah. And you’re not like confronting. Yeah. Right. You’re not like, yeah. Or complaining. You’re not in the heat at the moment. You’re past, you’re past it. You talk about it. You move on. Exactly. That’s good.

Ruth: Wow. So I feel like we could keep talking about this forever, but we are out of time. So where can we get your book? Where can we find out more? Where can we find you online? Tell us all the things.

Terri: Okay. So you can get the book and all the bonuses at HFC book. Which is high function and codependency. So hfcbook.com. Um, and you just put in wherever you bought it and you will get access to a whole bunch of bonuses and free stuff. And I’m doing a book club. So I’m going to be reading the book, you know, one chapter a month. It’s actually, we’re going to stay together and really go over all the exercises. It’s going to be really exciting.

I’m also doing, um, a summit. So speaking of relationships, where I’ve interviewed 30 relationship experts talking about Epic relationships, how did we create them? Like, well, how do we do it so that people can go to that? They can sign up for free at terricole.com/summit.